My comment...Mike P. has said everything better that I could have expressed it. Play the tee that suits your game. NEVER do skins or CTP if you can't make money on it. Enjoy!
I agree that the age requirement to determine tees is unnecessary as long as someone is playing the same tees all of the time and not changing back and forth. If you shoot much lower scores from the gold than you would from the whites, then your quota will reflect that. Anyone looking to make a change from their current tees should be treated as a new player as they establish their new quota. Phil's comments regarding the relationship between the distance and tee boxes played have merit, but I don't think it's practical (or advisable) to try to strictly enforce. As mentioned by previous commenters, personal preference and enjoyment of the game should be honored and the quota system should take care of the fairness issue. For what they're worth, Andy had some observations about skins and CTP but I think those optional games are what they are and not really "fixable". I played at another club where they had separate CTP for gold and white tees, but it was only contested on 1 of the par 3's. Having separate gold and white would require 2 placards for each green which doesn't seem practical. The only competition that is really fair is the basic game bet where the quota accurately equalizes everything. I say play the optional games at your own risk - you probably noticed it's usually the same names winning most of the time. We should be having fun competing against the golf course with a minimal basic bet to make it interesting. The optional games played from separate tee boxes are inherently unfair and seem to be the biggest cause of dissension within the group. No one is forcing you to play them, nor should they.
Firstly, our competitions should always be focused on fairness. According to the PGA of America, if you can't hit a drive 225-250 then you shouldn't be playing the white tees on the South Course (6100 yards?). If you can hit your drive that far, then you should be playing the white tees regardless of your age.
The USGA surveyed 20,000 of their members who say that their preferred Par 3 distance is where they need to hit a 6 iron and that a it's too short of a distance when they can hit a gap wedge (a gap wedge sits between your pitching wedge and sand wedge). They also say that the average golfer hits his 7-iron 138 yards and should be playing a course yardage of 6100 yards. They also believe that a reasonable par 3 distance is 152 yards for the average golfer.
NO WHERE in any of the discussions I've read is age talked about; it's all about skill level (how far can you hit it) and enjoying the game.
I started this comment about fairness, but we also have to balance that with enjoyment; if our members don't enjoy playing with us, then they'll stop coming. We have members playing the white tees that can't hit their drives 200 yards. We also have members playing the gold tees who can hit their drives well over 200 yards. To make things fair, we'd have to conduct some sort of ability test to measure either driver or 7-iron distances, or both, and assign tees appropriately. I don't know if that's manageable.
My thoughts are that if you're hitting driver and pitching wedge (or less) to most of the par 4s, then you're playing the wrong tee box. Conversely, if you're hitting driver and hybrid or 3 wood to most of the par 4s, then you're playing the wrong tee box. (Notice that I haven't mentioned age at all?)
We should do away with the age requirement for moving to the gold tees and let members play from whichever tee they most enjoy playing from. I would also ask that our members assess themselves and play from the tee distances recommended by the USGA.
Phil, Jerry and me have been in a discussion on texts regarding the tee box controversy. Here is my opinion from our conversations:
As far as an advantage, it makes no difference what tee box a player plays as long as they always play the same tee box. Sure, it's preferred a player that's under 65 that hits the ball long and has a low handicap that they play the appropriate tee box to their golfing abilities. But, if you have an average or below average player that enjoys the game more if they can score more points, at least in our league, from a forward tee box then why can't they? We are always wanting new members but to criticize someone who wants to enjoy the game by taking fewer strokes and be competitive then what's the problem???
Pace of Play: Our number one bitch from members is a person's pace of play. These "slower" players are usually slower because they are taking more strokes to get to the green and losing their ball more often. It's not necessarily because they are just slow? Are they enjoying the game and going to stick with our league if they CAN'T score and have to pick up after a missed bogey shot? More than likely not for long because they are only making a monetary donation to the more experienced golfers who are consistently in the money.
Skins:
More players are not getting into Skins because we have Gold tee'rs hitting their drive and using, at most, a wedge onto the green for a birdie opportunity. Yes, higher handicappers have a chance for Net Skins but not very often a white tee'r will get a Gross skin. So, Skins is stacked in Gold tee favor for our longer hitting seniors.
CTP:
More white tee'rs are not getting into CTP because the Goldies are usually just hitting a wedge whereas a white tee'r is hitting at least a 7 iron, with the exception of #7.
I know there are players that will say Skins and CTP is not my problem because I don't get into those optional games. But you have to look at this same scenario with the "game" that all players are required to pay $15 to get into.
Game:
The rule is to pick up after you miss your bogey shot and take your ZERO which means NO POINT! Because of that our higher handicappers that struggle to make a point from the White tees is basically just donating money to the more experienced golfers. What fun is that??? How is that being fair to EACH of our members? The only way this would be fair is if we require a player to have a certain skill level to join our league...do we want that?
These are my thoughts on our current situation with the league. Yes, it's been the same rules for decades that the age limit for Gold is 65yo. The USGA is constantly changing the rules of the game so that more golfers for one, are not cheating or having unfair advantages, but mostly to get more golfers on the course and enjoy the game. It's good for business! It's also good for our league to consider certain changes if we want our league to continue to exist, maybe even get more members!
Please provide your thoughts and opinions and please be respectful to others, Tom Carroll.
Press the "Follow" link to be notified when someone replies in this thread. You will not be able to post until you have created an account on the site. When you create an account I highly suggest you login with your Google or Facebook account as I do NOT have the ability to reset your password with an email account if a problem arises. To create an account just click the "Login" button above.
My comment...Mike P. has said everything better that I could have expressed it. Play the tee that suits your game. NEVER do skins or CTP if you can't make money on it. Enjoy!
I agree that the age requirement to determine tees is unnecessary as long as someone is playing the same tees all of the time and not changing back and forth. If you shoot much lower scores from the gold than you would from the whites, then your quota will reflect that. Anyone looking to make a change from their current tees should be treated as a new player as they establish their new quota. Phil's comments regarding the relationship between the distance and tee boxes played have merit, but I don't think it's practical (or advisable) to try to strictly enforce. As mentioned by previous commenters, personal preference and enjoyment of the game should be honored and the quota system should take care of the fairness issue. For what they're worth, Andy had some observations about skins and CTP but I think those optional games are what they are and not really "fixable". I played at another club where they had separate CTP for gold and white tees, but it was only contested on 1 of the par 3's. Having separate gold and white would require 2 placards for each green which doesn't seem practical. The only competition that is really fair is the basic game bet where the quota accurately equalizes everything. I say play the optional games at your own risk - you probably noticed it's usually the same names winning most of the time. We should be having fun competing against the golf course with a minimal basic bet to make it interesting. The optional games played from separate tee boxes are inherently unfair and seem to be the biggest cause of dissension within the group. No one is forcing you to play them, nor should they.
Firstly, our competitions should always be focused on fairness. According to the PGA of America, if you can't hit a drive 225-250 then you shouldn't be playing the white tees on the South Course (6100 yards?). If you can hit your drive that far, then you should be playing the white tees regardless of your age.
https://help.18birdies.com/article/550-what-tees-should-i-play
The USGA surveyed 20,000 of their members who say that their preferred Par 3 distance is where they need to hit a 6 iron and that a it's too short of a distance when they can hit a gap wedge (a gap wedge sits between your pitching wedge and sand wedge). They also say that the average golfer hits his 7-iron 138 yards and should be playing a course yardage of 6100 yards. They also believe that a reasonable par 3 distance is 152 yards for the average golfer.
https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/green-section-record/61/issue-11/helping-golfers-choose-their--best-tees--.html
NO WHERE in any of the discussions I've read is age talked about; it's all about skill level (how far can you hit it) and enjoying the game.
I started this comment about fairness, but we also have to balance that with enjoyment; if our members don't enjoy playing with us, then they'll stop coming. We have members playing the white tees that can't hit their drives 200 yards. We also have members playing the gold tees who can hit their drives well over 200 yards. To make things fair, we'd have to conduct some sort of ability test to measure either driver or 7-iron distances, or both, and assign tees appropriately. I don't know if that's manageable.
My thoughts are that if you're hitting driver and pitching wedge (or less) to most of the par 4s, then you're playing the wrong tee box. Conversely, if you're hitting driver and hybrid or 3 wood to most of the par 4s, then you're playing the wrong tee box. (Notice that I haven't mentioned age at all?)
We should do away with the age requirement for moving to the gold tees and let members play from whichever tee they most enjoy playing from. I would also ask that our members assess themselves and play from the tee distances recommended by the USGA.
Phil, Jerry and me have been in a discussion on texts regarding the tee box controversy. Here is my opinion from our conversations:
As far as an advantage, it makes no difference what tee box a player plays as long as they always play the same tee box. Sure, it's preferred a player that's under 65 that hits the ball long and has a low handicap that they play the appropriate tee box to their golfing abilities. But, if you have an average or below average player that enjoys the game more if they can score more points, at least in our league, from a forward tee box then why can't they? We are always wanting new members but to criticize someone who wants to enjoy the game by taking fewer strokes and be competitive then what's the problem???
Pace of Play: Our number one bitch from members is a person's pace of play. These "slower" players are usually slower because they are taking more strokes to get to the green and losing their ball more often. It's not necessarily because they are just slow? Are they enjoying the game and going to stick with our league if they CAN'T score and have to pick up after a missed bogey shot? More than likely not for long because they are only making a monetary donation to the more experienced golfers who are consistently in the money.
Skins:
More players are not getting into Skins because we have Gold tee'rs hitting their drive and using, at most, a wedge onto the green for a birdie opportunity. Yes, higher handicappers have a chance for Net Skins but not very often a white tee'r will get a Gross skin. So, Skins is stacked in Gold tee favor for our longer hitting seniors.
CTP:
More white tee'rs are not getting into CTP because the Goldies are usually just hitting a wedge whereas a white tee'r is hitting at least a 7 iron, with the exception of #7.
I know there are players that will say Skins and CTP is not my problem because I don't get into those optional games. But you have to look at this same scenario with the "game" that all players are required to pay $15 to get into.
Game:
The rule is to pick up after you miss your bogey shot and take your ZERO which means NO POINT! Because of that our higher handicappers that struggle to make a point from the White tees is basically just donating money to the more experienced golfers. What fun is that??? How is that being fair to EACH of our members? The only way this would be fair is if we require a player to have a certain skill level to join our league...do we want that?
These are my thoughts on our current situation with the league. Yes, it's been the same rules for decades that the age limit for Gold is 65yo. The USGA is constantly changing the rules of the game so that more golfers for one, are not cheating or having unfair advantages, but mostly to get more golfers on the course and enjoy the game. It's good for business! It's also good for our league to consider certain changes if we want our league to continue to exist, maybe even get more members!
Please provide your thoughts and opinions and please be respectful to others, Tom Carroll.
Press the "Follow" link to be notified when someone replies in this thread. You will not be able to post until you have created an account on the site. When you create an account I highly suggest you login with your Google or Facebook account as I do NOT have the ability to reset your password with an email account if a problem arises. To create an account just click the "Login" button above.
Andy